Posts by moggy lover

30

Do you understand the ransom?

by Fisherman in

because i am a christian i accept the ransom with a leap of faith but undrstanding it is beyond my imagination.

i cannot justify torturing and killing the innocent, but that is only my thinking.

god must have good reasons for what he does.

moggy lover

Nope. But I can still say "Thank you"

Like I can't understand the mystery of life, but I still thank my parents for being so in love that they had meeeeeeeeeeee.

Cheers

5

12.06 KM and the "spirtual banquet" served by Jehovah

by rassillon in

in concert with the previous post about the revelation book changes (and changes in general) i would like to add a few comments and reasoning points from the december 2006 our kingdom ministry.. (first) on page 1 under the heading "do not lose the love you had at first" paragraph 2 states: personal study and meeting attendance: what caused us to develop love for god and neighbor when we first learned the truth?

was it not all that we learned about jehovah from our study of the scriptures?

(1 john 4:16, 19) therefore, so that our love "may abound yet more and more," we must continue taking in accurate knowledge, digging into "the deep things of god.

moggy lover

Thanks Rassilon [you have'nt got his sash, by the way have you?] for that timely reminder of whats in the latest KM. The WT leadership must really be in dread of losing their membership since they constantly keep bringing up this issue of renewed awareness of the WTS and its authority, to keep the R&F on hanging on.

Nice point they bring out about 1Jo4:16. I don't mean the text, I mean the "spin" they put on the text, without actually quoting it. Their way of looking at this text is to state, quite categorically, I might add, that it is through the study of WT literature and meeting attendace that we first learned to gain a love for j.hoofer. Hmmmmm... I wonder where the text says, or even remotely implies this.

Apart from the fact that 1Jo 4 is applied to "anointed" Christians exclusively, [vs 7 calls them "born of God"] nowhere is either the words "study" or "meeting attendance" mentioned. However something indeed is mentioned. By simply reading the preceeding verse we realize what this is. Confession.[ Publicly saying "I believe"] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, [not a son of God] will find that God enters his/her life and actually in-dwells him/her [1Jo 4:15]

The sad part about the WTS is that they teach that loving God is a natural process that can be wrought simply by certain physical acts like study, filling out a door-to-door report, meeting attendance and so on. Unfortunately it is not so. As 1Jo 4:15 shows, it is in fact a supernatural process.

Just as a simple act like saying "I do" publicly, enables one to have a privilged relationship with a partner involving the deepest of intimacy, so, simply saying to anyone listening, "I believe" is sufficient to have a deep and in-dwelling relationship with Deity. That is all that John is saying.

You don't have to say it a thousand times, you don't have to go d-t-d saying it, and you dont even have to say "I have studied so much that I understand" You don't have to go to any particular church. Nope. None of these things are mentioned in that verse.

God's plan of salvation is so simple, yet it is so enduring and deep, that the only reason it escapes many [like the WTS] is because someone has blinded their eyes [2 Cor 4:4] This way of salvation is in fact the "deep things" of God.

So much more fascinating to follow prophetic speculation, and to be in awe of a self serving bunch of arrogant jerks whose knowledge of the "deep things" of God is questionable to say the least.

Thanks again

Cheers

11

re book :Crisis of conscience

by winnie in

jw
friends

does anyone have a copy of franz's crisis of conscience secondhand or new they would consider selling (in australia) or know where i can get one?.

thanks.

moggy lover

The Ozzie distributers for "Crisis of Conscience" is a store called "KOORONG Books" and they have seven stores throughout NSW. Here are their locations and phone numbers, you can decide which area is most convienient for you:

1West Ryde [Main Store] 9857-4477

2Penrith 4727-4477

3Port MacQuarie 6584-4977

4Armidale 6772-2622

5 Newcastle 4929-3160

6 Gosford 4322-1238

7 Tamworth 6766-3883

Originally published in 1983, the book has been such a huge bestseller that the publishers, Commentary press have had to urge Ray Franz to bring out updated editions. The latest is the 4th edition, published in 2002, which in addition to having the most up-to-date information available at the time, also has a most welcome index at the back, making research so much easier. The first two editions sadly lacked this feature

The price for the paperback is $37.95 and the Hard cover $46.95

Franz's second book "In search of Christian Freedom" is currently not available in Australia but can be purchased dirctly from the publishers or Freeminds.com

Secondhand copies could be anywhere and it would take a quick lookaround to locate. Elizabeth's in Sydney largest of the second hand booksellers may be able to locate a copy for you. However if you are going to spend a little money getting a copy, your best bet would be purchasing the latest 4th edition

Hopes this helps

Cheers

17

How do you view the Bible?

by Fisherman in

i think that the bible gives hope and comfort.

i also think that the bible is a good book without me saying too much.

but is it a product of god?

moggy lover

As an evangelical Christian, I suppose my view of the Bible approximates that of the WTS.

I believe it to be the inerrant word of God, a product of Divine Revelation, with the message of salvation to all human beings everywhere. Everything we know about Christianity, and its Founder, we know as a result of Revelation. The message contained therein is for all, accessable to all and capable of moving people to supreme heights fo faith.

I believe that, although it has been miraculously preserved, the means by which this has been done is through human handling. Thus although it has a Divine Message, this does not mean there are no questions regarding its preservation. Textual variation, historical valences, and the accumulation of physical evidence through such applications as archaeology, is part of a spiritual, and not mechanistic, heritage.

There is much we do not know, and probably will never know about the sum of its message, but this is another evidence of its origins. Although the message in it is simple enough for a child to understand, its details have enough information to keep even the most skilled of scholars intrigued. It is NOT an organisational book, given to a select few, sitting imperiously in some ivory tower in New York to interpret to their hearts content.

Neither is it an instrument of power to wield over a following kept in ignorance of its contents. Where debate about its meaning is supressed. It is in fact a book of freedom, liberating in its force, and powerful enough to expose any hypocrisy.

And although there are basic notions contained in it that are foundational to salvation, there is much in it that is also capable of multiple interpretations. It plumbs the depths of a moral dimension. In other words, the Bible will not teach you how to be a heart surgeon, or a taxi driver, but it will teach you how to be a good heart surgeon, or taxi driver. If it does not then it the person, misaplying its message, and not the message that is at fault.

Cheers

28

child getting baptized

by Cindyrenee in

nine year old grandson studying to be babtized.

any thoughts on this??

i think it is insane.

moggy lover

Pity there is'nt a law against such monstrous behaviour.

I was 15 back in 1957 when I was baptized, and now, in retrospect, I feel that I was way too young to make such a major commitment in my life.

Cheers

10

"Babylon The Great Has Fallen"-God's Kingdom Rules!--+QB--PDF!

by Atlantis in

(+qb--stands for: plus question booklet).

"babylon the great has fallen" god's kingdom rules!this is a very large file of 710 pages with maps and total index pages included.

chart of dates see pages 682--690.

moggy lover

Right on Atlantis! Actually I knew you'd come through in the end.!!

Gawd.. This book brings back memories. Sordid memories, of course, but memories nevertheless. At a hefty 703 pages, this book still holds the record for being the largest book studied by the R&F at their book study meeting.

You young ' uns out there have no idea what we had to go throgh to digest this book. It took us a full two years to go through the entire thing. Two years ' 64 and ' 65 totally absorbed in this muck. The only reason I think I endured it was because I must have really loved the WTS !!

Incidently, when did Babylon the Great fall? Well, according to the book, it was in March 1919, '"When the prison doors were forced open, and out they came", ie, the WTS directors, including JFR et al who were released at that time from a detention that had lasted 9 months.

Thanks for coming through, and well done mate. accept my congratulations on ajob well done.

Cheers

44

What XMas Present Would You Like This Year???

by minimus in

jw
friends

one thing that jws do, whether they were "strong in the truth" or not is accept presents.

even if they don't "celebrate" thanksgiving, they'd still take the turkey from the employer.

if someone sent out a birthday gift or christmas present, a witness would still take but never givein return.

moggy lover

Hmmmm..... Gooood question.

Howabout a real honest to goodness solid gold cadilac.

That I can place on my computer. Or hide in my safe. Oooops don't have one.

Nah. I think Blondie's idea for a fully paid convention, [in Paris, maybe?] sounds just fine.

Cheers

26

Why did the WTS ever bother to release the KIT?

by AK - Jeff in

in noting another post regarding a pdf version of the kingdom interlinear translation, i traversed the internet sites of several critics of this translation.

lots of interesting reading, true.

i wonder why the wts left the door to accusation so wide open?

moggy lover

Ozzie: The original ' 69 edition is no longer in print. The later, ' 85 edition, though not officially out of print, is virtually impossible to obtain freely. It takes a lot of hard looking and asking around. The trick that the WTS used was restricting the printing run.

At the same assembly that the revised KIT was released we saw the release of the "Reasoning" book. With the WT following at that time topping the 2.5 mill mark, the printing of the "reasoning book" was put at 2mil, thus ensuring a fair distribution to all. The KIT, however was limited to less than 1 mil copies, with no reprints. [The Reasoning book was reprinted, with revisions -naturally- in ' 89 for additional converts]

With the population of the WTS currently standing at 6 mil, the possibility of finding a copy is even more remote, unless the WTS allows another print run, which appears unlikely.

I am not entirely sure why the WTS published the KIT back in ' 69. But possibly there was a need for being up to date. Remember that the WTS already had an Interlinear on the market, called the "Emphatic Diaglott" first published by the Society in 1902, reprinted, without changes in 1942. Although the author, Benjamin Wilson had an Anti-trinitarian bias, his version was ultimately unsatisfactory.

For instance, despite his interlinear portion rendered Jo 1:1 as "a god was the logos" his actual translation admitted to "And the Logos was God" Freddy obviously felt that a thorough WT leaning interlinear should be released.

However, having said that, there seems to be another reason. To give the impression to the R&F at least, that the WTS is an open, Bible organisation, with scholastic pretensions, and with nothing to hide. Like all the conjuring tricks employed by the WTS, the perception is different from the reality. Simultaneous with its release, there was also a deliberate attempt to downplay its significance, in that the R&F were never actually encouraged to use the book in any meaningful way. No WT study used it, except insofar as to make an incidental reference to some obscure point of WT doctrine.

No witness was educated in its structure, nor enlightened on its ability to make the NT text more accessable to the reader. In fact, other than the use of Jo 1:1 to show the "need" for the "a god" rendering, and that the Greek "Parousia" at Matt 24:3 means "presence" the majority of the R&F were unaware of its contents. In fact we on JWD would be far more knowledgable abouts its subject matter than they. Having obtained a copy, it then lies, like a slowly ticking bomb, unused, in a JWs library shelf.

Significantly it is not logged into the WT CD Rom library in either the ' 04 or ' 05 editions

It seems appropiate to point out that the original ED published in 1902 had a larger print run than the current KIT. Which ironically means that that book is easier to obtain than the KIT. [Actually, the WTS copyright on the ED has expired, putting it into the public domain. Some months ago Altlantis made it available for download on JWD.] The original KIT has also now been made available by Atlantis on a current thread.

Cheers

10

"Babylon The Great Has Fallen"-God's Kingdom Rules!--+QB--PDF!

by Atlantis in

(+qb--stands for: plus question booklet).

"babylon the great has fallen" god's kingdom rules!this is a very large file of 710 pages with maps and total index pages included.

chart of dates see pages 682--690.

moggy lover

Sorry, matey, but I am getting the same message as Garybuss. Hmmm... let me see.......

Oh no! It can't be.........................can it?

The [evil] Empire strikes back! Maybe the gremlins at WTS HQ have been let loose. They are onto us, matey.......you think?

Cheers

2

Citation of YHMW in the 1969 KIT

by Ancientofdays in

everybody can look at the 237 citation of yhwh in the new world traslation appendix, as in the kingdom interlinear 1985 version.

the translator comitee decided to use yhwh for theological reasons where the original text containsx kyros.

i know that in the kingdom interlinear , 1969 version (i never seen it, aniway) the citation of yhwh were a lot more.

moggy lover

I am sorry, but I am a little dense this morning, but I am having difficulty understanding your question.

Having consulted the two editions of the KIT I can't see any difference in the number of citations. Both editions use the Tetragrammaton 237 times in the main body of the text, with an additional 72 times as a footnote, making a total of 309 occasions where it is used.

The only difference is the number of authorities [the J sources] that have been consulted. The ' 69 edition consulted 21 of these sources, while the ' 85 edition used 27. It would of course make no difference if the WTS quoted an additional 100 other sources, unless it was proved that the original writings did so.

It seems hollow to think that after 34 years of intensive searching for additional documents, the WTS could only find an additional 6. Of these: two were released after the original edition of the NW Translation in 1950. [J 22 in 1979, 23 in 1975] another one, J25, is in fact a 20th cent publication, and is not even a translation. One, J24, was published in 1863, one in the 18th cent J27 [1796] and the sixth, the oldest was released in the 16th cent. [J26 in 1533]

There are other anomalies in citing these sources:

1 In the ' 85 edition of KIT, the WTS does not reveal that J 2 and J 3 are essentially the same work, only that J 2 was revised into J 3

2 In the original edition the source known as J 10 "Gospels in Hebrew" published in 1800 in London, has been changed to read: "The New Testament ...... in Hebrew and English" published 1789-1805.

3 In the original edition, J 19 is described as : "John in Hebrew" Published by the "Jews Society of Haifa, Palestine, in 1930, arranged by T C Horton". The revised edition of KIT, however, tells us that this is in fact "John, Heb, by Moshe I Ben Maeir of Denver Colorado, and published in 1957 For some unfathomable reason, the original ' 69 edition listed "John" in italic print. It is replaced by normal print in the ' 85 edition.

For a fuller treatment of this subject, you can consult the book "Witnessing the Name" written by WTS researcher, Doug Mason. It is available from Freeminds.org

There is also currently a thread running on JWD making the original 69 edition of KIT available to researchers.

Cheers